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Your Toughest Challenge

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9:07 am
June 5, 2012



posts 95



Is he post Contributor?


One of my favorite movies is What Dreams May Come….. it's loosely based off Swedenborg. He was naturally interested in alot of aspects I was- and several other theologies and philosophies have sense embraced, including the Jungians, and via them you.


He's….. more advanced than a contributor is though. Represents new possibilities….. his books are half filled with boring muck that's bull….. but also good stuff too- more so than anyone else. I've thought about applying your typeology to his concept of the heavens….. but no one would ever read it.


I can't imagine a greater challenge to you. The Post-Contributor.

7:08 pm
June 19, 2012



posts 45

I skimmed through the wikipedia article on Swedenborg and I see that his ideas are a mixture of thoughtful and bizarre. I need to think about him more. I think that he is post-Contributor in the sense of going beyond the technical Contributor controlled thought of science and embracing the Mercy and Teacher driven thought of emotional intuition. This reminds me of Kierkegaardian–jumping off of logic in order to live in feeling. But, the specific way in which he did this leap into the irrational seems different than either Kierkegaard or Schleiermacher.


I will try to look at him some more.

12:50 am
June 21, 2012



posts 95

Swedenborg is tied in first place with a few others for the title of smartest man who ever lived (think it was Sanford who did that). He outstrips me in terms of control and understanding of self easily. He was trapped in a Perceiver lifestyle for years and years though, could of came off easily as Immanuel Kant in his engineering days…..they both had access to aspects of thinking that lead to a massive internal explosion.


Both seems to defend and speak to the Server individual….. but there isn't a chance for a normal server person to comprehend them.


I find it intriging Kant went after Swedenborg, he didn't need to, next to no one paid attention to Swedenborg prior to this….. but Swedenborg within a hundred years went on to triumph. It's like the Locke-Berkeley debate.


Now, it needs to be remembered he was the pioneer for so much that we do today in terms of psychology, dream interpretation, typology, understanding of the brain….. empiracally by default his ideas won't be easily acceptable, given his sudden shift and evolution in outlook. Alot of it's gobbally goop….. but tied up together in a sense we intuitively seem to recognize as having some substance and background reasoning to it.

If you take my concept that a fact is any given part of a mode of thinking is anatomically different from the 'same thought' in another mode of thinking- essentially a server and contributor facilitator each thinking about raw data before them will process and emphasis the 'facts' differently and wll differ on where the beginning and end of the idea naturally lies, Swedenborg takes facts and does alot of odd things to it. It comes off insensible to us. But isnt it the same for a exhorter looking at contributor thought, or a contributor looking at someone like Peter Singer bird brain theories?


I agree in his case it's post contributor. I don't think it's a simple case of just pointing to a new node of the mind and saying 'this is him'. It's more the oddity of how he networks everything, and how he anwsers questions we never knew to consciously ask but sit at the immature root of all we care to think about.


The movie 'What Dreams May Come' is a interpretation based off of elements of his thinking. I read the book too….. book isn't worth reading…. movie is decent. Lot's of documentries on him.

6:42 pm
June 23, 2012



posts 45

I'm putting something together on Swedenborg which I will post in a few days.

5:34 am
July 6, 2012



posts 45

Toughest challenge: met.


Actually, he was worth looking at and I thank you for bringing him to my attention.

6:49 pm
July 6, 2012



posts 95

He's one of a very few that need grasped from my gut feeling before you can write authoritively on dreams.


Next one I'm swinging towards you is doing odd things with love from a Server and Exhorter perspective…. his dream world is bit different, and it's end product is perhaps the most challenging work ever produced in the history or books. It challenged me, and later on I discovered Jung was obsessed with the work as well:


Hypnerotomachia Poliphili


I was approached by a person, older female, who was internally destroyed by not understnading men, and was deeply into occult and random philosophies, and organized them sociallyceven if she didn't beleive in them, such as a Advaita Non-Dualism group. Her husband had prostate cancer, and it made a bad relationship go to non-existant. I kid you not, she's running for president of the United States in Washington State now, and wrote a few odd typology texts. Has several strong Facilitator traits.

She ended up deeply greived about male psychology, and was becoming a man hater (she denies that last part)….. so I gave her a link to a untranslated copy of that text- given she's a computer programmer….. and no one has ever heard from her since. She's gone down the rabbit's hole, and isn't coming back. She should of taken the blue pill.


Anyway, the concept of the movie 'Inception is based on this work'. They started transating the work 500 years ago, but didn't succeed until just a couple of years ago- given how difficult of a task it was. Ironically, it's the model that all present day books are based off of.


I experienced only once this sort of dream in a dream phenomena, and am convinced it's a actual part of the brain, some odd feedback loop rarely remembered upon waking, and it's always bothered me, as I was 'lucid' in a sense, but not in the normal sense of when lucid dreaming occurs…. my cognition differed substantially, and I could see one dream while in another, but the dream being perceived went on on it's own theme without awareness, while the macrodream was fully aware of it, while still talking to a dumbed down part of me in the marcodream.


I believe this book describes real phenomena. So did Jung. Jung the Facilitator and I the Contributor are not the same type. It's one of the milestones in psychology that has to be understood and digested before a comprehensive understanding of consciousness can be claimed.


You may be in a good position to interprete this text. You must be aware though- given it's antiquity and isolation, and how difficult it is to understand…. it's the forrunner for a lot of thoughts- your essentially dealing with something lacking a lineage in philosophy or history, it's the first case of its own category. Don't take anything, even the placement of images and spacing of words, for granted.

6:58 pm
July 6, 2012



posts 95

be great if I gave you a link to start off with….._Poliphili


Anyway, if I don't hear from you in three months, I'm comming up to Vancouver to bring you back. Don't get lost staring into the void.

7:46 pm
July 6, 2012



posts 95

Post edited 7:47 pm – July 6, 2012 by Onasander

I got off of amazon to a new translation:…..1412053242


I've just purchased this book and have some first thoughts.

I think

it's pointless to understand the Hypnerotomachia Polipholi without first

delving into Frances Yates book, The Art of Memory. Ms. Yates'

masterpiece gives an intellectual context for the magic book, which I

think is deeply connected to the Art of Memory. Perhaps The

Hypnerotomachia is the ultimate "fantasia" of memory, As Ms. Yates

refers to it, the state of the art, before being swallowed up, made

irrelevant by the printing press.

That said, I think it remains for

scholars of this book to attend to the intense VISUALIZATION of the

places described in the Hypnerotomachia, rather than add more useless

layers of words. This is Mr. Esteban's most valuable insight, his first

academic motive, and as such it represents a very healthy and helpful

avenue of research into the significance of the Hypnerotomachia

Polipholi, and he has done much meticulous work to give precise visual

imagery to the tortured narrations. Working from these images,I would

suggest the next logical step would be to link them to heraldic imagery

in general, and Francesco Collonna's working knowledge of memory systems

in particular. If the images could start to be informed by the

narrative in relation to these symbols, perhaps another layer of the

Hypnerotomachia could be then revealed.


I fully recommend Francis Yates work on memory, I own a paperback version of it, and it's essential you read it. I don't think you would grasp in your current state of knowledge all the tools contributors and exhorters have cognitively in manipulating imagination lucidly that had been developed historically. It's gonna have ten times the depth of understanding possible than what you got from Swedenborg, and lend you alot more authority once your able to navigate the stucture of these old works on working memory that sat at the center of philosophy in antiquity.

10:53 pm
July 29, 2012



posts 95

Post edited 10:57 pm – July 29, 2012 by Onasander

Hypnerotomachia Poliphili

Strife of Love in a Dream….._Poliphili


I really don't know why this forum keeps cutting the links in half.


There are people on yahoo anwsers claiming similar dreams- having dream flashbacks to other dreams in a dream, but can't link them here cause I can't link anything here.…..OsmeBGA.Bd.;_ylv=3?qid=20120729154825AA1UmV2

2:26 am
August 7, 2012



posts 95

So how does The Old Hag Syndrome line up withmental symmetry?

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7 Responses to Your Toughest Challenge | Christian Doctrine | Forum Topics

  1. WildWinds says:

    Interesting history of eyeliner. Also, agreed about the sunscreen (and blush, I never have understood the purpose). Cosmetic and fashion companies have good control over people. Some are even taking advantage of the semi-recent emotional crisis of how made up, airbrushed models used for advertising place unrealistic expectations on young girls.

  2. WildWinds says:

    I’m pretty much a baby in this theory; much reading in both Lane’s and Lorin’s texts is to be done. But for what its worth, I too noticed the differences in their writing styles and how they approached the topic and noticed how Lane goes more for the big picture. I’m a Perceiver person and really enjoy reading Lorin’s texts, I can actually relate when he makes comments like “As a Perceiver person…” Something will lead me to think about something else and how it applies, and sure enough if I keep reading, Lorin will cover what I was questioning. My Teacher person friends seem to prefer Lane’s texts though.

  3. fairladyZ64 says:

    I feel a little self conscience and relieved to reveal my cognitive style…would love to get a smile, recognization, appreciation, acceptence when greatful. As seen in a myrid of ways by other(s)~ their allocated traits + (plus) xp (experience) = exposition eg. self ~ NOTE…and note unto self My spelling is phonetic, at best…lousy drives me uP the wall, however I can spend and have hours on one sentance, a paragraph can get nowhere and I give…uP…exhausted with/in my effort to express myself verbally ( yet in type ) can cause me to back up truncation into non-existance expressions of what I … for lack of a better word /or not coming to mind… am…my way…of getting there. Lorin, I have forgotton my orgin of thought which caused this post, however in a round-a-bout way I am asking that you make a note that…I have awaited this forum. The reveal of the/ this theory should have NEVER been limited to the faulacity of your higher learning institution. Rather left exposed to humanity, with s response portal, to the whole…of humanity. For I have spoken/inquired of your findings b4 (deal with SOME short cuts of expression) finding your reality of facts and understanding, I was very frank with you upon my initial reading of the mercy room when I expressed to you ( in e-mails maybe long un accessed or deleated…and I’m pretty close to quoting myself…HOW do YOU know of this place??…a place I can find my emotions LOST in if it weren’t for TEACHER emotions and PERCIEVER facts, leading me into (ya, strange) Server actions which lean into the uncomfortable…and again THX, your …http// I printed 1/18/2006 has valadated my perception of this realm. Tis’ a cool thing and a great gift. Thank you

    • lorinfriesen says:

      Hi. Over the years I have found that Mercy persons often really appreciate this material because they realize that it is OK to be a Mercy person. The inhuman technological world may shut down Mercy feelings, but these emotions are legitimate.
      I just spent eight years in South Korea. People there are not as emotionally split there as we are here in North America. Business and family go together there.

  4. Brandon Casner says:

    I was on the website with Hatchback- he was one of the ones who plucked us innocents off the MBTI forums. Either he or CBeck informed me I was a contributor, and apparently from the old material made it sound really cool and elite…. but it started getting on everyone’s nerves, and everyone started preying viciously on one another, mimicking the worst traits inherent in the idealization of the type. The facilitators became fascist, the teachers douchebags, perceivers contrarily douchebags, and contributors the archetypal aquarian destroyers….. and mercy just came out gypsy weird…. and easily toyed with.

    That site died once the seriphot came up…. and the dawning realization of how close the similarities.

    This being said…. after the dust has settled, may be a future in the system- largely because I still use it, as well as the seriphot, as quick shorthand symbols for ideas I have to note the beginning and end and sudden arrival of certain kinds of thought, so I can go back and try to trace back the mechanics of it. Sometimes helpful, sometimes not, but would be hypocritical of me to completely disregard it if I use it in part…. so I back it partly. I still recommend the videos to people if I have to get them up to speed real quick for psychology…. but I note everything I need them for isn’t really listed. Such as how each type dreams. I’ve noticed it differs…. also meditation- such as sitting meditation- differs substantially for a INTJ Contributor than for a Mercy or Facilitator, as my eyesight changes substantially in passive as well as active response to just sitting and stairing… I get shapes and sinewave patterns bouncing around from doing nothing distracting me, while others see nothing but a wall in front of them…. if I shift my thinking pattern, it shifts as well, or goes away completely. That’s what sent the warning signals off in my head to look into varient mediation tecniques, as Zen clearly isn’t designed for a Contributor persay, but better for a facilitator- hence the big Enzo loop. I see these issues everywhere, across religions…. I can apply some of it here to the differation of the cognitive styles, but it becomes ify at times. Some systems don’t easily stick…. such as dualistic tibetian mandalas. Yes…. I can imagine lorn sitting down doing a graph of a mandala and how everything would intergrate…. but time after time after time having to do the work over an over by hand makes it suspicious the theory itself is missing something fundamental that the mandalas themselves are teasing out, the the koans are, that the mantras are, prayers are, the walking philosophical discussions are, etc. Something Nietzsche grasped but failed to reach. A need for a overman mentality…. but in each system it’s not within the type itself…. it’s a transference to another style, or hodgepodge of them, as well as intergration in greater depth of a particular style. This seems a bit beyond what Hatchback and CBeck exposed us to, and I have yet to see it on mental symmetry…. though I am admittedly lack luster in searching through everything still. I’ll take my time. I have more gripes than pleasantries, but still am capable of pleasantries, so I’ll say hello to Hatchback.

    I will also say I can’t tell the difference between any writer’s writing style on the site…. looks the same to me unless I see the name titled.

    I am also perplexed as to why crabs have personality types. Why? I own three, each a predictable type…. but they don’t show signs of social organization in eating or sleeping someplace…. but they are as complex as baboons at times. Why? Their brains can’t be too similar to ours, much different evolutionary history, yet….

  5. Kaeppen says:

    I tried to reply to the forum to a topic about left-hemisphere and right-hemisphere Facilitators. but it didn’t work so I decided to put my post here:

    I remember in childhood I loved ‘wisdom’ and thought of angels a lot. I “felt” the presence of angels many times and wondered if I was an angel myself somehow. Maybe wisdom personified as an angel to me. Then came the uncertainty and in the end hijacking the cortex and sensation-seeking.

    I’m now trying to “light up” natural conscience again but I have started to feel extremely guilty. I cannot “atone for my sins” without P-strategy working but when it’s working and leading I feel like I’ve killed someone. I have no idea where to start because I did a lot of immoral things while in the “sleep” that I don’t even remember. I feel I’m pinned down here and sometimes wonder if I’m just delusional.
    What should I do?

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